|
Post by davemurphy on Jun 6, 2010 11:35:56 GMT -5
Davema and I had an interesting debate last night. In what would seem to be the concensus among boxing fans, and certainly among the HBO Crew, they applauded Arthur Mercante Jr. for letting the fight continue. Davema agrees.
I know he said he wasn't sure of the origin of the Towel and who threw it in, but Arthur did say in the post fight that immediately after it came in, he saw the Cheif Second on the Ring apron telling him to stop the fight. So to me, who threw it in is a mute point, he has the man right in front of him signaling to end it.
Okay, I agree that it wasn't life threatening, this isn't Eddie Futch telling Carlos Padilla that Joe Frazier had had enough, but I thought we CLEARLY had a fighter who didn't want to continue but was gutting it out and carrying on because he had no other option, and whom without his biggest weapon (foot speed) had ZERO chance of winning. Miguel Cotto could drop his hands and let Yuri Foreman hit him all day and never be in any serious danger, the chance of a KO was nil.
My point? Well, what IS the point of having a Cheif Second, the man who you trust to know his fighter BETTER than the Referee, the man who's responsible for knowing when to say when, if his input is to be ignored? Did anyone think Yuri Foreman hobbling around the Ring was going to win now that he was a sitting duck? Be honest.
I was critical of Mercante Jr. back when he let Hurtado take eight straight Hard Lefts just because he seemed to think Pernell Whitaker wasn't a hard puncher, and only Hurtado finally sagging to the Canvas prevented more. This wasn't quite as aggregous an error as that, and I thought he'd improved, but then we see something like last night, and I'm not so sure.
I think both He and Michael Ortega got their positions via some good will for their Fathers, and maybe that's the way things are done in New York, it's not the only place........but now that his Father has left us, I think that Favor has Expired.
Okay, guys, Flame Away, I'm fair game..........
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Jun 6, 2010 12:15:21 GMT -5
In the case last night and really only in that case I agree with Mercante ignoring the towel from the corner. I disagree with you in that I thought Foreman wanted to keep fighting not to mention he told his corner he wanted to keep fighting before the round.
I thought Mercante did a great job and I also think Foreman won a ton of fans last night for not taking the easy way out
|
|
|
Post by bill paxton on Jun 6, 2010 12:47:20 GMT -5
I agreed with Mercante in that specific scenario last night because Foreman was champion, he was defending his title, he was still in competitive exchanges, and when asked if he wanted to continue he said yes. A champion should be able to defend his title. Mercante didn't know where the towel came from when he made his decision to continue. He asked the man who is trying to defend his title(and was still able too) if he wanted to continue, and the man said yes. It was a ballsy move. I agreed with it.
|
|
|
Post by davemurphy on Jun 7, 2010 2:42:43 GMT -5
Bill- What do you think the fighter is going to say when asked? Also, count how many times Yuri bends over in obvious pain. I know your guys seeing him throwing punches, but I got the feeling that he didn't want to, he HAD to or face being called a Quitter, which no fighter wants. But I think part of it is that it's this PARTICULAR REF, and he's had a history of hesitating to stop fights. Three Examples that come to mind:
1.Whitaker-Hurtado
2.Michael Bennett-Hutchinson (Olympian Pro Debut Card, he starts to step in and then lets Bennett throw two right hands as Hutchinson head is tilted backword and resting on the third Rope, the only thing keeping him up).
3.Beethoven Scottland vs George Khalid Jones.
To put it quite simply, Arthur Mercante Jr. is dangerous.
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Jun 7, 2010 15:26:52 GMT -5
Well Campbell and Guerrero both said they didn't want to continue ... several fighters haven't been able to continue and said so from similar injuries. The pissed off look on Foreman's face when the towel came in was enough for me. I think that without reading something into it that wasn't there Mercante did the right thing Saturday night no matter what his past discretions were
|
|
scott
Full Member
Posts: 103
|
Post by scott on Jun 8, 2010 1:53:34 GMT -5
Really surprised that Dave's on his own here,if a corner decide to call a fight over that should be it,regardless.I'm struggling to think of another time when a ref ignored a corner like this.On the subject of Mercante Jr,he should nowhere near a ring.
|
|
|
Post by tontb on Jun 8, 2010 4:51:58 GMT -5
Guys, you should check out Michael Katsidis vs Graham Earl from a few years back. Absolute war of a fight but it was a fight where Graham Earls corner threw the towel in. Referee Mickey Vann didn't stop the fight, he picked the towel up and threw it back out, and a few seconds later Earl floored Katsidis. I was gobsmacked that the ref had threw the towel back out, but it was a good move because Earl came right back into the fight, at least for a little while. Was a cracking fight that one.
|
|
|
Post by davemurphy on Jun 8, 2010 14:30:58 GMT -5
Really surprised that Dave's on his own here,if a corner decide to call a fight over that should be it,regardless.I'm struggling to think of another time when a ref ignored a corner like this.On the subject of Mercante Jr,he should nowhere near a ring. Scott- I think Billy C's dead on when he points to Mercante's Macho attitude, I really don't think he holds Boxers in general in high regard. There's rare times when it works, I thought his telling Clottey to "fight like a champ" and not complain about the low blows was right on. But those situations are VERY rare. In this case, the Corner and not the fighter was calling for an end, and they know more about their fighter than Mercante Jr. does.....and in fact, given that he's going to be experiencing adrenelaine from the battle, they're probably a bit judge than Yuri himself.
|
|
|
Post by davemurphy on Jun 8, 2010 14:37:22 GMT -5
Guys, you should check out Michael Katsidis vs Graham Earl from a few years back. Absolute war of a fight but it was a fight where Graham Earls corner threw the towel in. Referee Mickey Vann didn't stop the fight, he picked the towel up and threw it back out, and a few seconds later Earl floored Katsidis. I was gobsmacked that the ref had threw the towel back out, but it was a good move because Earl came right back into the fight, at least for a little while. Was a cracking fight that one. I plead guilty to having an anti-Mercante feeling based on the past, and while I'm disappointed in Vann's action in this case, I will give him more leeway based on my unfamiliarity with any previous examples. My feeling is that if they want to stop the fight, step into the Ring after throwing the Towel and then he HAS to stop it. As for this fight in particular, it kind of reminds me of Bowe-Holyfeild III. Sure, there was a knockdown that followed the point where stoppage seemed reasonable, but in the end it was stopped anyway.
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Jun 8, 2010 18:55:45 GMT -5
Just disagree 100% I thought it was the right call and of course Yuri and his trainer will benefit greatly because of it. If Yuri (or his trainer) bitch out of that fight his next fight is non-televised ... now it is an HBO fight. The corner doesn't know better when it is a non-boxing related injury. I made this point elsewhere but it probably wasn't good for Willis Reed to go out and play in game 7 with a torn thigh muscle, it probably wasn't good for Kirk Gibson to go to the plate against the A's ... I know it wasn't good for Byron Leftwich to have his O-Line carry him up to the line of scrimmage when he was at Marshall ... or Robbie Bosco to come back into the NC game with a several damaged knee and ankle.
What these athletes had in common is they were allowed to decide for themselves. Yuri Foreman had a non-boxing, non life threatening injury. He wanted to continue ... he argued with his corner prior to the 8th, he told Mercante he wanted to continue. His mind was not impaired at all ... no 1%. He should have been allowed to continue and Mercante did the completely right thing in allowing him too. Once he was hurt by Cotto and not by slipping Mercante stopped the fight.
No matter what he did in the past he was 1000% correct on Saturday night ... even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then, Mercante got his nut Saturday night
|
|
|
Post by davemurphy on Jun 9, 2010 0:17:44 GMT -5
You left out Kerri Strug, Mike. JK. As far as Willis Reed, I don't think he ever had another decent season, and I'm not totally sure, but I don't beleive Kurt Gibson did either. As to whether the limited Post Season play in those two games (7th game vs Lakers, 1st game WS vs A's) caused that, I think is highly doubtful....but what I DO KNOW is that they went into action having been approved for limited purposes, Reed to provide an emotional lift to his team (he hit his first two shots, and then didn't play much after) and Gibson to pinch hit. Those are TEAM sports and you have a Team to pick you up. There wasn't any Team for Yuri Foreman to provide a spark for, only himself. I'm confused when you say non-boxing injury, to me an injury is an injury. Plus, do you really think we fans are so skeptical to have held him to ridicule had the towel throw been left to stand? I'd like to think we wouldn't have been quite that cynical, even with a few questions raised with regard to some recent situations (Cintron, Campbell, ect). Oh well, we agree to disagree. Let's move on....
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Jun 9, 2010 4:51:02 GMT -5
No but I think casual fans would have thought he quit and I think TV would not have let him back on for a while ... by non-boxing injury I just mean he wasn't hurt because of punches to the head.
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Jun 9, 2010 10:27:23 GMT -5
I think one thing being majorly overlooked here is that Mercante was told that an outsider (not the corner) threw the towel into the ring ... even Michael Buffer announced to the crowd that the towel was thrown by someone other than the corner. With that information, there really is no denying that Mercante made the right call. Mercante even said that he didn't know the corner threw it until he saw the replay.
|
|
|
Post by Davema on Jun 9, 2010 10:34:26 GMT -5
well, I watched the fight again last night. I still like what Mercante tried to do, but obviously the whole thing was very weird to say the least.
Mercante gave Yuri another shot, but stopped it appropriately the next round. I just think he wanted Yuri to go out like the warrior he was.
The rules were obviously not followed and I think there are many people to blame, not just Mercante the whipping boy. Where was the commission? The doctor?..and most importantly, if the corner didnt want him to fight, why did they let him continue the next round.
It was an overall clusterfuck, but in the end, Yuri Foreman's stature grows and I guess so does Mercante's lol (probably not in a positive way)
It was refreshing to me to see guys wanting to continue, as opposed to what we have been seeing lately with guys looking to get out of a fight.
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Jun 9, 2010 10:53:55 GMT -5
Most of the legit media I have read is applauding Mercante's decisions ...
|
|