|
|
Post by Daxx on Aug 11, 2010 21:07:09 GMT -5
Everyone judges a fight different, amazingly enough iot seems that after a bout even those who agree on who the winner was somehow seen the fight different. Personally I judge it by 3 different apsects. 1. Who controlled the fight. This does not always mean who pressed the action, it means who made things happen they way they wanted when they wanted. Was the fighter able to rest and counter when he felt he needed, be it on the ropes or by leaning on his man. Did he make exchanges happen when he wanted and nullify them when his opp wanted but he did not etc 2. Effective punching, not how hard the shots landed not even how clean but effective. Was the fighter able to use his jab to keep him man at bay, was he able to get in the punches clean when he wanted to the point he kept his opp honest even with feints, WAS he asble to land clean when he wanted or did he have to hope volume would allow shots to get through? I want to see the guy land when he wanted 3. The fighter themselves, how did they adjust throughout the bout, how did they compose themselves in between rounds? Did they panic or did they do what was needed to keep things on their side or change things to thier advantage if they were losing the last round. Of course the KO takes out all equasion but this is just my personal way of looking at fightsa can not say it is the right way but for me it tells a lot about the whole fight not just a few rounds...I try to use this method to keep from being pursuaded by last minute flurries or guys who throw blizzard combos that don't land yet confuse the eye etc.. Curious how you gents personally score a fight to decide a winner we all know the judging criteria if you were ringside but we are not paid top rob fighters  |
|
|
|
Post by dallen on Aug 12, 2010 5:44:02 GMT -5
I go by the rules of boxing,clean punches landing on the target area as the punches score points or should on the referee scorecard.I agree with your number 1 and 2 but your number 3 i would put more on the corner instructions to the fighter thats what good cornermen should be doing.
In todays boxing points are scored for the boxer who comes forward ,lands the harder punch even if they are few and far between.Which is not the way bouts should be scored,but refs and judges all have different ways they score fights thats why we have so many very poor decisions.
|
|
|
|
Post by davemurphy on Aug 12, 2010 13:55:49 GMT -5
I think the point in BC's rants on the show is less criteria than consistency. THAT is where our current system is letting us down. One fight you see the same Judge go hog wild over Ring Generalship and awards a Runner, and the next time around THE SAME GUY JUDGING and he overvalues Effective Agressiveness in favor of a guy who's doing a lot of throwing but not a whole lot of landing. SAME Judge, why not the SAME Criteria?
Whether you use the "who would I rather have been at the end of the Round?" system or you do the "break it down into three one minute segments" system, I've found that Fans more than some of the questionable Judges we see inexplicably working fights at least HAVE a system..........one that works independent of "Who is the Fighters Promoter?" "Who's EXPECTED to win here?" and "Who does my Org that made my assignment probably prefer?".
I would want a Top Baseball Umpire to maintain the same Strike Zone whether he's got a future Hall of Famer on the mound in Yankee Stadium or he's working a Rookie League Game in Billings, Montana. In Boxing we have too many fights were it depends on who's fighting as to what criteria is being used, and it's just choking the sport to death.
|
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Aug 12, 2010 14:07:07 GMT -5
I think the problem with fans is that they have an expectation going into the fight and they tend to score it as such. Anyone who says as a fan they judge a fight without letting who you like influence it is pretty much lying. An example for me was with Chris Avalos the other night. I found myself giving him rounds early in the fight and I had to stop myself and say Martin is really just dominating this fight.
Judges are more influenced by who is promoting the fight and where the fight is taking place and Billy is right they just are not consistent in how they score a fight.
|
|
|
|
Post by Daxx on Aug 12, 2010 14:15:38 GMT -5
I think the problem with fans is that they have an expectation going into the fight and they tend to score it as such. Anyone who says as a fan they judge a fight without letting who you like influence it is pretty much lying. An example for me was with Chris Avalos the other night. I found myself giving him rounds early in the fight and I had to stop myself and say Martin is really just dominating this fight. Judges are more influenced by who is promoting the fight and where the fight is taking place and Billy is right they just are not consistent in how they score a fight. I think we are all guilty of that...I mean in all seriousnesds how many times have you watched a fight with one of your favorites and thought he won or doninated and then you watch the fight later on and say to yourself "He did not do as well or the margin was not what it appeared"......Thats why if possible I like to watch fights twice...Usually live when able and then a replay or record the next day..... As for promoters I was watching a fight the other day on the Calderron undercard between Takashi Pkada and McWilliam Arroyo (Think its spelled right) but anyhow Arroyo was a upstart with 2 fights 2 wins by KO on the promoters stable and Okada had a 1-0-1 with 1 KO....It was a cracking bout but Okada was landing more and he was busier...He dropped Arroyo in the second and the announcers had the nerve to say it should have been a UD for Arroyo they gave him every round and even stated they only scopred a 10-9 for the knoxkdown rd....In a 4 round fight where he was knocked down? At best it would have been a 1 pt win if he swept every other round....So the announce team can also persuade the way people see things especially to just casual fans.... Like I said before I am not saying my system is the right system but it is rather fair....And IMO it takes away from fighters stealing round decisions by fighting hard for 30 seconds of the 3 minutes |
|
|
|
Post by davemurphy on Aug 12, 2010 14:20:17 GMT -5
I think the problem with fans is that they have an expectation going into the fight and they tend to score it as such. Anyone who says as a fan they judge a fight without letting who you like influence it is pretty much lying. An example for me was with Chris Avalos the other night. I found myself giving him rounds early in the fight and I had to stop myself and say Martin is really just dominating this fight. Judges are more influenced by who is promoting the fight and where the fight is taking place and Billy is right they just are not consistent in how they score a fight. Mike- I would disagree that the expectations really effect the Fans scoring, but then it's kind of BS for me to talk for the group as a whole. I know in some cases, for example Leonard-Hagler, the expectations that SRL would get clobbered maybe made it look like Leonard was doing more than he actually was, but I really think those type of fights are Rare where expectations don't give way to reality once the fight gets really going. Sure, we all have our Favs, but I try to at least be consistent at the very least and true to my own particular system, whatever it might be. Even you yourself said that you "caught yourself". My problem with some of the actual Judges is that they NEVER do. |
|
|
|
Post by Daxx on Aug 12, 2010 14:26:58 GMT -5
Yeah the difference is Dave we are not paid to judge fights and we do not hold futures in our hands for a young mans career or lively hood if we give a half assed view of the fight.....Some of the judges are out and out crazy...Every time I hear Dalby Shirley I cringe
|
|
|
|
Post by davemurphy on Aug 12, 2010 14:41:56 GMT -5
Yeah the difference is Dave we are not paid to judge fights and we do not hold futures in our hands for a young mans career or lively hood if we give a half assed view of the fight.....Some of the judges are out and out crazy...Every time I hear Dalby Shirley I cringe I'd refer to it as something more sinister than crazy, Daxx. As for guys who are inconsistent, you just picked out the poster boy in Dalby Shirley. The only thing you can usually count on with him is that he'll usually turn in a definitive scorecard, if he's going to screw a guy he'll not fart around with a one pt verdict, he'll usually go all the way  |
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Aug 12, 2010 14:57:56 GMT -5
What was that one fight where two scores were correct for the winner like 118-110 and the third judge had it 120-108 for the clear loser ... I am drawing a blank on that one.
|
|
|
|
Post by davemurphy on Aug 13, 2010 12:17:03 GMT -5
What was that one fight where two scores were correct for the winner like 118-110 and the third judge had it 120-108 for the clear loser ... I am drawing a blank on that one. Mike- I'm not sure if it's the one your thinking of, but I recall Doug Tucker, who's a veteran Judge, had Jose Navaro up 120-108 when he rather clearly lost to Mijares in a title fight a couple years ago. |
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Aug 13, 2010 15:44:52 GMT -5
Yeah that was it ... I was thinking Mijares but was too lazy to look it up. Seriously is he even allowed to judge fights anymore. I was wrong because one judge had it close at 115-113 and Adalaide Byrd had it 117-111 both for Mijares
|
|
|
|
Post by davemurphy on Aug 14, 2010 12:49:45 GMT -5
Yeah that was it ... I was thinking Mijares but was too lazy to look it up. Seriously is he even allowed to judge fights anymore. I was wrong because one judge had it close at 115-113 and Adalaide Byrd had it 117-111 both for Mijares You weren't half as wrong as Doug Tucker was He's a pretty experienced Judge, and when they announced that one then I simply assumed that it had been some kind of mix up in the addition and what they'd handed the Ring Announcer was copied wrong. But then I never heard anything else about it and it's still on BoxRec that way. Btw, offbase, but I remember back about ten years or so ago, Danny Romero fought Enrique Jupiter on ESPN and as they were interviewing Romero after the fight thinking he'd won, Mark Beiro interrupts and tells them one of the cards was copied wrong and it was actually a Draw. Another time, I remember them going off the Air in Denver with the Hometown Crowd thinking Stevie Johnston had won back his Title from Castillo....and then we find out later that IT was a DRAW and Stevie still an Ex-Champion. In all those cases, I was pretty fascinated that copying things from one peice of paper to another and doing simple math was such a challenge for some people |
|
|
|
Post by mh2365 on Aug 14, 2010 21:34:14 GMT -5
same thing with the first Barrera-Juarez fight ... I thought the same thing at the time of the Mijares fight ... I thought it was announced wrong and Tucker had it 120-108 for Mijares.
|
|
