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Post by billyc on Sept 26, 2011 6:59:01 GMT -5
OK...after REALLY thinking about this over the weekend, I have decided that the ONLY way to get us the REAL #1 P4P ranking would be to put Mayweather against Martinez...the Winner becomes the #1 P4P fighter in the World, Manny goes to #2 and the loser of May-Serg goes to #3. What do you think?
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Post by davemurphy on Sept 28, 2011 8:20:18 GMT -5
I think that Floyd started out 30 pounds south of MW at JLW, so if he was simply competitive with Martinez, not neccesarly beat him, then he'd be my pick regardless of the outcome. It's kind of why I hate P4P altogether, even with the two fighters inside the Ring together it can be interpreted in different ways. My other question is why should Manny be elevated to #2 (assuming someone has him #3) over the loser? Depending on how the fight goes, there's no guarantee that the loser can't still beat Pacquiao. It's like the College Football Polls when #1 plays #2 and beats them, and then #2 suddenly is ranked 4th the next week, when in fact they still might be the second best team in the country.
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Post by billyc on Sept 28, 2011 11:16:42 GMT -5
If things continue like they are...Manny fighting "opps" and Floyd fighting "opps" and Martinez fighting "opps" and NONE ever fight each other...then the rankings as they sit now, Manny, Floyd, Sergio will remain the same.
I agree with you on the P4P rankings....I only like looking at them with retired fighters. AND a HW can't be in the mix!
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Post by davemurphy on Sept 28, 2011 23:29:19 GMT -5
If things continue like they are...Manny fighting "opps" and Floyd fighting "opps" and Martinez fighting "opps" and NONE ever fight each other...then the rankings as they sit now, Manny, Floyd, Sergio will remain the same. I agree with you on the P4P rankings....I only like looking at them with retired fighters. AND a HW can't be in the mix! BC- Yeah, I think that was the real intention of P4P, was to give the retired fighters some measure of evaluation, Ray Robinson in particular (like Babe Ruth is considered the Father of Baseball, SRR is the Father of Pound-for-Pound). Pernell Whitaker following the Chavez fight was the first active fighter that I ever heard mention the damn P4P and once that idiot had a Jacket made up with that Inscription and then started fighting some questionable opponents (Jacobs, Hurtado, Rivera come to mind) rather than the best available ( he EVENTUALLY got around to DLH and Tito, but never Ike), then it was "off to the Races" and people like Roy and Floyd have turned it from a mythical creation into some kind of silly ass title they covet.
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Post by billyc on Sept 29, 2011 3:39:01 GMT -5
The bottom line...in order to be the best...you HAVE to fight the BEST OF YOUR ERA...no more, no less. 0's mean nothing if you did not fight anyone. Will David Rodriguez (HW) be great if he continues to win vs bums? I think hes 36-0 now... only six fights behind Floyd....0's mean nothing.
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Post by davemurphy on Sept 29, 2011 9:37:24 GMT -5
The bottom line...in order to be the best...you HAVE to fight the BEST OF YOUR ERA...no more, no less. 0's mean nothing if you did not fight anyone. Will David Rodriguez (HW) be great if he continues to win vs bums? I think hes 36-0 now... only six fights behind Floyd....0's mean nothing. Brian Nielsen got to be 49-0, so why is he not mentioned as being tied with Marciano??? Why is Swen Ottke denied Canastota? Two other guys that proved just how little it's worth.
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Post by billyc on Sept 30, 2011 3:47:20 GMT -5
The thing is...we CAN'T talk about how good, bad, or GREAT a fighter is until AFTER his career is over...then we can put it in perspective and rate the fighter. In Floyd's case...if he continues the way he is, he may be looked upon as having great skills and even a 0, but that will NOT put him in the discussion with the all-time greats and he will certainly not be looked upon as the best ever! I think he DEF gets in the HOF...no matter what happens from here on out...but the guy is hurting himself in boxing greatness terms...but then again, he doens't really give a shit. Its about the $$$ and from a business end, and from a guy who is broke...I can't blame him!
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Post by davemurphy on Sept 30, 2011 17:48:44 GMT -5
Bottomline is they fight for money and if the positions on the ATG list had a pricetag at each step, then Floyd would worry about, as it is, he simply doesn't. He's been around the sport long enough to realize there's a "fade" coming at the end of the line, he saw it with his Uncle Roger when he was fighting well past the point where he was still serviceable. My guess is that we still see it, because the guy goes through money like most people do shirts, he's simply NEVER going to have enough to last him for any length of time.
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Post by Daxx on Oct 1, 2011 19:43:26 GMT -5
DLH is bigger than Martinez...Floyd has fought guys he holds 2, 3 inches advanatges in height and reach over...Fighting Martinez is not pushing it...Ortiz is much bigger than PBF in over all size bulk but he had no issues in fighting him so the size thing is not holdimg water IMO...not competitive in terms of credit either wins or not same for Martinez.....Floyd does not say 41 tried...32 were competitive...people say this is boxing not a nice guy sport not a tickling contest etc so guess what...we dont get the top spot for almost winning or doing well......I would think that no matter who it was....The whole they fight for money and if the money is not right stuff is a valid issue...I agree this is called PRIZE FIGHTING for obvious reason lol...I do not begrudge a guy for trying to make as much as he can before retiring...fighters have short careers most are retired well before 40 they have a long life to live after....Just dont spout off at the mouth on how good you are expect everyone to agree if your not fighting the guys at the same level who are only a weight class above.....Besides Manny can fight guys 4 inches and 20 lbs heavier but Floyd cant fight one 2 inches and 10 lbs?.....catch 22 no?.....Would Ali be ranked or considerd by a majority of the greatest HW of all if he did not fight Frazier, Fromeman or that lot?
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Post by billyc on Oct 4, 2011 13:09:46 GMT -5
I agree with you Daxx...but with ALI...not only was he a Great fighter, for any weight, he DID have the benefit of fighting during one of the best eras of the HW division, so he will always get that credit. We can't blame others for not being around when the division was good or bad...all we can do is give them the credit for fighting EVERY one that is around. With that said, in the HW Div, how much better does that make Ali? They say the only other era that was as good as the 60-70's was between 1900-1920. As for Fay...when its all said and done, he will be remembered more for the fights he DIDN'T have then the ones he did.
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Post by davemurphy on Oct 5, 2011 1:24:42 GMT -5
I agree with you Daxx...but with ALI...not only was he a Great fighter, for any weight, he DID have the benefit of fighting during one of the best eras of the HW division, so he will always get that credit. We can't blame others for not being around when the division was good or bad...all we can do is give them the credit for fighting EVERY one that is around. With that said, in the HW Div, how much better does that make Ali? They say the only other era that was as good as the 60-70's was between 1900-1920. As for Fay...when its all said and done, he will be remembered more for the fights he DIDN'T have then the ones he did. Sadly, that's shaping up to be the legacy of both these guys, Floyd and Manny. I think the only thing anyone is going to recall about this past three years is the pissing contest/war of words and nobody's even going to remember the fights they actually fought.
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Post by billyc on Oct 5, 2011 4:09:16 GMT -5
I think Manny will get the legacy all of the greats get because he is so like-able. His opponets do seem tougher..by name...but make no mistake...they are all well thought out too...just like Fayweather.
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Post by davemurphy on Oct 5, 2011 19:48:51 GMT -5
I think Manny will get the legacy all of the greats get because he is so like-able. His opponets do seem tougher..by name...but make no mistake...they are all well thought out too...just like Fayweather. I think he'll definitely get the bigger Post-Career Boost, simply on popularity, like you suggest, but does a Boxing Historian looking back in time NOT take into account that Mayweather beat them first?
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Post by billyc on Oct 6, 2011 4:04:26 GMT -5
Aren't we are talking about three "real" fighters? (Mosley, Hatton, ODLH) We certainly can't count JMM...Pac had already fought him TWICE. Fay never fought Margarito, Clottey or Cotto. I hope the "boxing people" in the future look as Fay EXACTLY as I do! BUT...there is PLENTY of time for him to change that...all he needs to do is fight someone like MArtinz. Truthfully...I AM giving him credit (when most are not) for fighting Ortiz....who was bigger, stronger and young...but Fay proved that he (Fay) was way better!
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Post by davemurphy on Oct 7, 2011 23:52:14 GMT -5
Aren't we are talking about three "real" fighters? (Mosley, Hatton, ODLH) We certainly can't count JMM...Pac had already fought him TWICE...... And my cynical reply to that would be, "Yeah, and lost to him both times IMO" Until next month, Floyd Mayweather remains the only one of the two that's had a convincing win over Juan Manuel Marquez, BC. As for Margarito, I don't know that the post-Mosley Destruction Margo was anything like the "Just got into the Plastering Business" version that Floyd avoided.
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