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Post by billyc on Aug 26, 2010 4:11:35 GMT -5
OK...I have been saying it on the show over and over, but it really is the truth!
I know today...Promoters don't promote, fighters don't fight, managers don't manage, match-makers don't make matches, there are too many belts and TV networks run away, but when you really look at it, we need to blame someone and as much as I would love to blame this on that dancing midget DaveMa, I can't. The truth is they are ALL to blame, but if we DID have to point the finger at one, and since it can't be DaveMa, then it HAS to be the Promoter.
Over the years they have ruined boxing. The early promoters promoted. They made a school yard brawl into a world wide event when there was no TV let alone Internet. They sold out arenas we only dream about today in terms of size. They got the public introduced to the fighters and made a personal connection and THAT sold tickets.
Today...THEY are the ones raping us of money to buy their BS fights...afterall, they CAN'T put their cash cow in with someone who can fight. THEY are the ones that support all the belts because they make it sound like the 10-0 fighter with the XYZ Super Duper International West, North, East South Belt has value. THEY are the ones who don't want to spend a penny in advertsing the events THEY are putting on. Shit...THEY don't even sell the tickets any more....THEY make the fighters do it!
I really think we need to make it HARDER for these Arces to BECOME a promoter. Why is it in boxing that a promtoter can get his license and then expect to make a TON of money off of his first show? It doesn't work like that in ANY other business.
Lets say you invest in widgets. After you lay out the money to build them, and then the money to market them, and then the money to sell them, when do you see a profit? From the FIRST batch? I doubt it.
I know we have a lot of problems across the board in boxing, but I think the Promoter is the one that is to blame the most. I know a lot of people hate Don King and Bob Arum, but the truth is, thsoe two guys KNOW how to promote and the sad thing is, we have none in place that will take over when they are finally gone.
If something isn't done about the way the business of boxing is conducted soon....we are in trouble.
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Post by dallen on Aug 26, 2010 6:24:10 GMT -5
BillyC,also you have to think that there is lack of talent with the fighters we have today in each division, you could make a couple of good competitive fights.In bygone years fighters not even in the top ten could give a Champion a competitive fight and so many more intresting bouts occured.Fans followed fighters and the dreaded zero never was that important,so fighters took chances with opponents.In todays world fighters are looking for the edge to protect there records,and not fighting the best opponents available.And in my opinion thats why many fans have lost a lot of interest in the sport,plus all the other bullshit you have mentioned.
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Post by billyc on Aug 26, 2010 7:00:32 GMT -5
I agree, but think about WHO put the value in the 0. The Promoter! They sold that to the networks, who seem to make it a pre-req to have a fighter on. Thus....we end up seeing fighters with 0's but like you said....it does not mean they are quality. Again...if there was only one or even two bodies....we would have a much better pool of "contenders" which would make better fights....but AGAIN, the Promoter is the one who fuels the bodies into ranking teir fighters....result....poor fights. I still think MOST of the blame goes on the promoters....at least here in the States. On YOUR side of the pond, you DO get more competetive fights because they don't care as much about the 0. Better promoters I guess!
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Post by davemurphy on Aug 26, 2010 13:15:23 GMT -5
Better Promoters and also a better network enviroment too, Billy. The UK fights I watch on Friday Afternoon aren't afraid to use a guy who can fight (or who simply makes a good matchup with the opponent in question) because he's got a 13-6 record or something like that. They beleive in putting on INTEREST FIGHTS via something called GOOD, er, hold on, I have this written down here so I could get the name right, let me find it.........[long pause, while Murph hunts down the paper he wrote it on].....ah, here it is, it's called Good Matchmaking. It's a foreign term to me of late, and certainly to a lot of this new breed of Promoters  |
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Post by davemurphy on Aug 26, 2010 13:22:22 GMT -5
I remember a little thing called a Non-Title Fight, in which a Champion wouldn't have to risk his title in order to get some work in, and a challenger could actually make his case FOR a title fight with a good effort or possible upset. Mention the phrase "Non-title fight" and Jose Sulamein would crap his Pants right in front of you at the thought of not getting a Cut, and the so-called Promoter would have a heart attack at not having some trinket on the line.
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Post by billyc on Aug 26, 2010 14:23:03 GMT -5
THUS...again I say, that the majority of the problem is on the promoter. Its funny, I know I have been saying that for a long time, but truthfully, it has really become apparent in the past two-three months. The more I talk about it with people, the more I feel I am proving it to at least myself that they are the number one to blame...then comes the networks, then the sanctioning bodies, then the managers, then the fighters, then the trainers and lets not forget, US...the fans. We too are to blame because we BUY the shit!
The worst is the young fans of today. I think that a lot of them ACCEPT the way things are, which will certainly spell DOOM for boxing at some point. In a way, from the feedback I get, our younger listeners LIKE to hear about the past and I hope we can help them keep things in prespective for the future. After all, if a 20 year old kid talks about a Chad Dawson, or Sergio Martinez or even YES...Fayweather....as an ALL-TIME GREAT thirty years from now when he is 50.....I will be rolling over in my grave!
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Post by mh2365 on Aug 26, 2010 15:06:27 GMT -5
You mean like Bob Arum not letting his fighters fight anyone not in his stable? Preventing the biggest fight out there because he isn't getting 100% of the promotion fee? Like him holding Donaire out of a proposed BW Super Six? Like him telling all of us that Margarito never cheated?
Yes Promoters suck these days and they are lead by the Devil himself Bob Arum.
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Post by billyc on Aug 26, 2010 15:54:06 GMT -5
He may be the devil, but that devil knows how to promote! EVERYONE knows who his fighters are. You know what they say....ALL PRESS is GOOD PRESS!
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Post by mh2365 on Aug 26, 2010 16:43:50 GMT -5
Who cares if we know who his fighters are if he won't put them in against good competition just because he doesn't own the rights to them ....
Bob Arum is the only reason we aren't getting Pac vs. Mayweather ... he is the only reason we aren't seeing Donaire against anyone with a pulse ... he is the sole reason we keep getting Manny vs. safe fighters ... he is the sole reason that Margarito still is the public eye ....
Arum would be vilifying a GBP fighter if he got caught red handed plastering his hands ... man could you imagine the stink he would make.
You are right promoters not promoting is a huge problem but Bob Arum is every thing that is wrong in boxing right now.
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Post by Daxx on Aug 26, 2010 21:41:38 GMT -5
OK...I have been saying it on the show over and over, but it really is the truth! I know today...Promoters don't promote, fighters don't fight, managers don't manage, match-makers don't make matches, there are too many belts and TV networks run away, but when you really look at it, we need to blame someone and as much as I would love to blame this on that dancing midget DaveMa, I can't. The truth is they are ALL to blame, but if we DID have to point the finger at one, and since it can't be DaveMa, then it HAS to be the Promoter. Over the years they have ruined boxing. The early promoters promoted. They made a school yard brawl into a world wide event when there was no TV let alone Internet. They sold out arenas we only dream about today in terms of size. They got the public introduced to the fighters and made a personal connection and THAT sold tickets. Today...THEY are the ones raping us of money to buy their BS fights...afterall, they CAN'T put their cash cow in with someone who can fight. THEY are the ones that support all the belts because they make it sound like the 10-0 fighter with the XYZ Super Duper International West, North, East South Belt has value. THEY are the ones who don't want to spend a penny in advertsing the events THEY are putting on. Shit...THEY don't even sell the tickets any more....THEY make the fighters do it! I really think we need to make it HARDER for these Arces to BECOME a promoter. Why is it in boxing that a promtoter can get his license and then expect to make a TON of money off of his first show? It doesn't work like that in ANY other business. Lets say you invest in widgets. After you lay out the money to build them, and then the money to market them, and then the money to sell them, when do you see a profit? From the FIRST batch? I doubt it. I know we have a lot of problems across the board in boxing, but I think the Promoter is the one that is to blame the most. I know a lot of people hate Don King and Bob Arum, but the truth is, thsoe two guys KNOW how to promote and the sad thing is, we have none in place that will take over when they are finally gone. If something isn't done about the way the business of boxing is conducted soon....we are in trouble. Many good points especially on the fact on how easy it is for some of these people to become promoters...One story I can share is when Lisa Elovich the head of Pugnacious Promotions first started out (Think it was after the 3 or 4th show they put on) I did an interview with her at the time I was in Schenectady had the gym with Vince Kittle and we had been boosting up the amateur scene....Hence a lot of the fighters (Actually more then half) she promotes now were amateurs at the time....Shannon Miller had just had that great fight with Vinny Maddalone on ESPN (Though both Suck8ck as fighters it was one hell of a banger)...I figured why not do an interview with a hometown promoter starting out we all are on the same page etc...I do the interview with her and she was trying to sell Shannon up to me big because at the time he was their STAR fighter  ....John Ruiz was WBA champion at the time...So after some BS because she did not even know at the time how to handle an interview that did not contain her being praised like the local papers were for shits and giggles I said to her "With the excitement Shannon stirred up in the Maddalone fight I know that Ruiz is looking for an opponent right now that would make for an exciting fight since the debacle of the Toney bout...Now mind you Ruiz was already in talks and the ink was just about dry for his Valuev fight 4 months later....Her response to me was....And I QUOTE.....IF Ruiz and his promoters offer the right amount of money and if they agree to a fight in Albany we would entertain the idea but other then that I would say no, Shannon is the draw so we should get choice of location and to be honest Shannon has bigger names he can choose from but if thew offer is right we might have negotiations".....I mean 1, How can you be a promoter of a HW and not know what is going on with the champions of the division. 2. How can you have the stones to say that your fighter who at the time was 11-1 against Taxi drivers at best in his wins should get the choice of venues etc and that you might entertain the idea if HIS camp offered you a deal you find accepable...I mean this lady was serious!!!!!!! Granted Ruiz is not the guy you look to for an exciting fight but he would use Shannon Miller as nothing more then a paid sparring session....At the time Ruiz was still one of the best in the division even aging.... It just showed that she could not even get the fact it was a WHAT IF question meaning it was not going to happen in their wildest dreams......But like you said anyone can be a promoter these days.....Yes Arum and King for as much as we complain about them once gone we will miss them....I may be alone but I also think that GBP is not great for boxing as many would believe and in the end they will end up hurting the sport more then helping it.... Shaw, Duva, Goosen we may complain about them as well but when push comes to shove I would take any of their promoted cards over 90% of these guys out there today...... |
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Post by billyc on Aug 27, 2010 3:48:50 GMT -5
Lisa E is the EXACT example of what we have today! She spends nothing on shows and puts on the worst match-ups known to man! GREAT example! The sad truth is, she is not alone.
There are only TWO real promoters out there. Two guys who promote. Two guys who will GET THE WORD OUT about a show....be it by posters, ads on TV, Paper, radio, etc, etc, etc, TWO guys that will create a BUZZ around their event and give people a sense of "shit I better go" and those are of course, King and Arum.
MH: you seem to think Arum is bad for boxing....I totally disagree. He may be a bad person, because of his antics, but as a promoter, he is tops. We know about his fighters...whether good or bad, we know about them. We know about his fight cards...again, whether good or bad we know about them...that means he is promoting. Don't get hung on the fact that YOU are one of the only people who blame him for not making the FAYWEATHER fight when everyone (most) else thinks that it is the chicken shit FAYWEATHER himself who will not fight Pac. The only reason the Pac-Fay fight has not been made is because Fayweather's main goal is to keep his 0 and in his mind, the only way to do that is to fight smaller, older or has-beens. I can accept you not liking Arum, and even Pac, but to make a statement that Arum is not a good promoter....that is nuts.
Promoters need to promote. That means we need to hear about their fights and fighers. If their style is to wear a black cowboy hat, so be it. Remember....everyone HATED ALI for years! NOW....try and find a person that hates him. When King and Arum are gone, boxing will miss them.
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Post by Daxx on Aug 27, 2010 11:41:02 GMT -5
Lisa E is the EXACT example of what we have today! She spends nothing on shows and puts on the worst match-ups known to man! GREAT example! The sad truth is, she is not alone. There are only TWO real promoters out there. Two guys who promote. Two guys who will GET THE WORD OUT about a show....be it by posters, ads on TV, Paper, radio, etc, etc, etc, TWO guys that will create a BUZZ around their event and give people a sense of "shit I better go" and those are of course, King and Arum. MH: you seem to think Arum is bad for boxing....I totally disagree. He may be a bad person, because of his antics, but as a promoter, he is tops. We know about his fighters...whether good or bad, we know about them. We know about his fight cards...again, whether good or bad we know about them...that means he is promoting. Don't get hung on the fact that YOU are one of the only people who blame him for not making the FAYWEATHER fight when everyone (most) else thinks that it is the chicken shit FAYWEATHER himself who will not fight Pac. The only reason the Pac-Fay fight has not been made is because Fayweather's main goal is to keep his 0 and in his mind, the only way to do that is to fight smaller, older or has-beens. I can accept you not liking Arum, and even Pac, but to make a statement that Arum is not a good promoter....that is nuts. Promoters need to promote. That means we need to hear about their fights and fighers. If their style is to wear a black cowboy hat, so be it. Remember....everyone HATED ALI for years! NOW....try and find a person that hates him. When King and Arum are gone, boxing will miss them. I said that before about King, I even got into an argument with a promoter I will leave his name out but he was a nobody that puts on shit shows who was telling me that he was going to be the biggest thing in 5 years...Yet half way to that time later he has yet to get past small armory shows....I stated to be like Don King you have to be willing to go all out and have to be willing to allow your fighters to be part of your promotions not just send out fliers and an occasional radio commercial a week before the event...At the time I had just covered a few things here in the states for Frank Maloney when Curtis was working with him and they asked who I was associated with I advised Saddo and Maloney Promotions the freaking guy had NO IDEA who the hell Frank Maloney was....In Fact he did not know who Frank Warren was!!!!!.....I told him that in the UK they were big names and the guy actually told me "What does it matter if the people over there know about us we are in the United States".....I could not get through his head that it had nothing to do with the US, UK or China it had to do with the sport of boxing and if you were going to bring a fighter to a title they would be a WORLD champion and if they could not garner a name that could be recognized throughout the world by fight fans promoters etc what the hell good was it in a financial sense but still the guy could not manage to get it through his head ..... I mean get a gimmick EG Dons Hair....Get a fighter you can use as your flagship...Be outspoken on the sport itself to the media EG- Lou DiBella...SOMETHING!!!!....BHut do not call yourself a promoter because you can manage to get up the money to buy a license get an insurance policy and a venue for guy to fight in...That is not a promoter... To make it worse they get these young fighters who really are not worth the price of admission and put them up against the worst possible competition to build up a bogus undefeated record in hopes they will climb the rankings then just have them blown out the first time they fight someone decent....That is not even manipulating the rankings it is just a waste of time....In the end no one makes money off the deal....Peanuts and chump change is what comes out of it...In the end the fans feel cheated and helps push those already frustrated with boxing away for good...It drives me crazy with this shit.....You hit a sore spot with this topic Billy because in my opinion they should not even be allowed to get a license in the first place..... Media outlets pop up everywhere as well who are the same quality....Anyone who can afford to purchase a URL or anyone who can afford to put out a small publication that have no idea on how to go about getting the news will make it up!!!....I mean some of these guys can n not even manage to get press releases sent to them...They don't understand and get frustrated because they call a promotion company from the number they get off a website and the champion is not readily available for an interview then and there  ...WTF do they expect |
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Post by mh2365 on Aug 27, 2010 14:20:39 GMT -5
First I am not the only one who blames him for the Mayweather fight not happening ... in fact most of the people who don't hate Mayweather are blaming him. I think Arum puts on shit cards once his fighter is on top ... look at any Manny fight card they are shit. His lower level ones are usually pretty solid. The perfect example of Arum being bad for boxing is the whole Margarito crap. Really you can defend him after this crap with Margarito? Second example is 3 weeks ago when Manny started talking about the possibility of Mayweather taking the November date (shows you Arum doesn't talk to his fighters) Arum went to the press and said there is no way they could do a Mayweather fight in November because there isn't enough time to promote it ... really? That fight could be announced today for next Saturday and break the PPV record for boxing. If anyone was to look at the Manny/Mayweather situation without their "hate Mayweather" glasses on they would see that the fight not happening is 95% Arum and 5% Mayweather ... Manny has no idea what he is doing he just does what he is told ... he is treated like he is mildly retarded by all his handlers ... so the one person that gets zero blame in this is Manny. 1) First fight was a done deal until Arum added the 10 million dollar per pound over 147 deal for Mayweather 2) Arum negotiated a fight with Clottey while he was supposedly trying to work out the Mayweather agreement 3) second go around he never contacted anyone associated with Mayweather ... instead tried to work out a deal with Greenberg from HBO ... He didn't talk to Floyd, Schaeffer or Ellerbe 4) openly said Manny would only fight other Arum fighters with the possible exception of Mayweather (in other words Manny won't fight anyone who isn't signed with Arum) Not sure how any rational person could not see that this fight not happening is Arum's fault. Of course Billy's hatred of Mayweather makes him not rational so that is understandable .... How can a guy who is responsible for this sports.yahoo.com/box/news;_ylt=Aiqys9_xgLKMwkqlgiHKloSUxLYF?slug=ki-margaritolicense082610be good for boxing .... |
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Post by billyc on Aug 27, 2010 15:26:09 GMT -5
LOL....95% Arum and 5% Fayweather....where are you getting your stats man?
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Post by macman on Aug 29, 2010 13:20:53 GMT -5
In the music business, of which I am a part, we have what are called A&R men. Among other things, they kind of do what a promoter in boxing does. And yes -- the success or failure of a given artist rests largely in the hands of this man/woman. I stand in four-square agreement with Bill on this matter.
The problem at its most basic level is this: the public doesn't KNOW these fighters! Think back. Ali was....hell, IS.....a household name. Now, you go out on the street and line up 10 random people. Ask them all if they've ever heard of, say, Lucien Bute, or Chad Dawson. You're gonna come up with a goose egg, nine out of ten times. Hell, ask them who Floyd Fairweather is - you'll get a few more nods, but for all intents and purposes, it's STILL going to be very low. NOW, ask those same people if they've heard of Ali, or Foreman. Boxing fans or not, you're going to get ten out of ten, or damn near it, EVERY time. Why is this? BECAUSE ALI, AND OTHER FIGHTERS OF THAT ERA AND BEFORE, WERE PROMOTED BY PEOPLE WHO REALIZED THAT IN ORDER FOR THE PUBLIC TO BECOME INVOLVED AND INTERESTED IN THE CAREER OF A FIGHTER, THEY HAVE TO _KNOW_ THAT FIGHTER, OR FEEL LIKE THEY DO. They have to be a fan, and have a vested interest in his career. THAT's what Billy's talking about, I think. Nobody KNOWS these people -- they're just another name. Why in the name of God should they throw down 50 fish in order to watch a couple of fighters they've never heard of and couldn't care less about, in a mediocre fight, one that is usually a mortal-lock going in, to boot?
No, BC has it just right. King and Arum are the only REAL promoters left. They KNOW how to put butts in seats, regardless of what you think of them personally. And until these 'promoters' get their minds out of their wallets and into the longevity of this grand and time-honored sport, we're going to get more of the same.
My biggest fear is that boxing is going to turn into the same thing as the MMA/UFC bullshit. When/if that happens, it's time to find a new sport. Badminton, anyone...??
macman/
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....John Ruiz was WBA champion at the time...So after some BS because she did not even know at the time how to handle an interview that did not contain her being praised like the local papers were for shits and giggles I said to her "With the excitement Shannon stirred up in the Maddalone fight I know that Ruiz is looking for an opponent right now that would make for an exciting fight since the debacle of the Toney bout...Now mind you Ruiz was already in talks and the ink was just about dry for his Valuev fight 4 months later....Her response to me was....And I QUOTE.....IF Ruiz and his promoters offer the right amount of money and if they agree to a fight in Albany we would entertain the idea but other then that I would say no, Shannon is the draw so we should get choice of location and to be honest Shannon has bigger names he can choose from but if thew offer is right we might have negotiations".....I mean 
...WTF do they expect